Comments on Jon Matthews: Newbigin and Politics

My knitting is going nowhere. It appears my enthu...

2006-02-10T21:31:21.876Z

My knitting is going nowhere. It appears my enthusiasm was only part of a passing fad! But then again, I do like challenge....

Jon, sorry to hijack your thread but I just came a...

2006-02-09T16:27:47.010Z

Jon, sorry to hijack your thread but I just came across this and instantly thought of you!
http://www.yarnharlot.ca/blog/olympics2006.html

It's a knitting challenge, starting today (I think). How is your knitting going, by the way?

Benny boy, it is probably best that we continue th...

2006-02-02T19:18:25.253Z

Benny boy, it is probably best that we continue this conversation in person. It sounds like we have confused each other considerably!

I think maybe I have missed the point so let me st...

2006-02-02T14:50:27.673Z

I think maybe I have missed the point so let me start again! How does this work? Are we saying that political systems are neither here nor there, but perhaps a means to an end? We have an agenda based on being followers of Jesus or the Kingdom of God or however you like to phrase it, and poltical systems can prove a means to that end.

If that is true then is there one which does that better than another? I supposse we all think so to some degree cos we vote, so who do we vote for?

The heart of the matter is 'what it is to be human...

2006-02-01T19:45:44.936Z

The heart of the matter is 'what it is to be human'.

What is the 'heart of the matter'? What does that ...

2006-02-01T11:23:30.346Z

What is the 'heart of the matter'? What does that mean?

Ben, by relatedness I suppose Newbigin is arguing ...

2006-01-31T17:51:37.740Z

Ben, by relatedness I suppose Newbigin is arguing that we were created for relationship both with God and neighbour. This flies in the face of post-Enlightenment thought which argues that humans are essentially 'autonomous individuals with innate and equal rights'. I don't think Newbigin is arguing that justice and freedom are not important, but just that neither of them can take us 'to the heart of the matter'.

Maria, Exactly! The revolution begins in the community of God as they seek to be his witness to the world. Being involved in politics shouldn't mean we have to set up our own parties.

The Politics of Jesus (a great book!) seem to me t...

2006-01-31T11:44:11.360Z

The Politics of Jesus (a great book!) seem to me to be sooo different from those of political parties that I struggle a lot with them. To quote an Ent (Treebread in fact): I am not wholly on any of their sides as none of them are wholly on mine... So I empathise a lot with what Newbigin is saying. Also that bit where he says that true freedom is in our allegience to Christ.

As for a practical side, what about trying to live that out in our community of believers than setting up yet another political party. I really want to look to my community and see this beautiful vision of the new life that God's word brings. I mean, isn't the promise of a new earth and heaven a far more exciting "political manifesto" than any of the current parties have...

Despite being at this book club under the pretext ...

2006-01-30T19:00:01.553Z

Despite being at this book club under the pretext of having read the book, I have not read this bit. What do you mean by relatedness?

Also if freedom and equality are not as important as we think or mean something different, then what is the bible talking about when it takles these isuues? (Lets for arguement sake say that equality can be translated as justice).

you have also had it on good authority that my dev...

2006-01-28T19:06:40.473Z

you have also had it on good authority that my devastating post has been acrapped.

A new, less devestating, and probably pointless post is one its way though.

Will prob be in swansea around the 18th feb if your about.

Tim Oakes, what I like about Newbigin is that he p...

2006-01-28T17:38:34.683Z

Tim Oakes, what I like about Newbigin is that he proposes a completely different way of looking at things rather than attempting to place himself on the spectrum. Human responsibilty to God and neighbour as opposed to universal human rights. The revolution begins with the church! As the ones called out to embody the gospel we should reflect the glory through living as we were created to be.

Jodie, I think the bible does present a coherent story from creation to new creation, in this sense I agree with Tim Lovell.

Tim Lovell, my amigo's list is not a league table. There is not an order of importance just a list of people. The only ones who get relegated are those who don't post (so maybe Rob should go on that count, but I do have it on good authority that there is a devastating post in the mix).

Scrivner, good question. I suppose it would mean embodying the values in our communities. The problem with both left and right (according to Newbigin) is that they base their ideologies on the same Enlightenment assumption. Dealing with money must be central, someone wise once said, 'you can't serve both God and money'.

I think you make a good point Jon. i see very poin...

2006-01-28T15:00:16.690Z

I think you make a good point Jon. i see very points of the left side and i'm yet to find anything i like about the right (but am open to it). but i guess i'm gonna ask the same question, how would you apply it?

the problem i'm finding (again and again) is that money keeps getting in the way of moving forward (in the human sense). we're so concerned with economic growth that looking out for the environment, "freeing" the press, employing a relational government, stopping war...it's all centers around bloody money! although in politics and economics they call it growth, its actually anything but, we're slowly destroying ourselves.

And Jon, I hate to say it, but you really are trad...

2006-01-28T14:31:19.333Z

And Jon, I hate to say it, but you really are trading in double standards here. I don't know why Rob the slob is still top of your little bloggers world league table. I'm voting for him to be relegated!

Jodes, give an example of how the Bibles view of h...

2006-01-28T14:29:36.570Z

Jodes, give an example of how the Bibles view of humanity changes. For my money the Bible, while obviously being different books by different authors, is incredibly unified on key themes all the way through.

And I'm not sure we're talking about giving up freedom in a metaphysical sense, just in a day to day, living in society sense. For example, communism, (the extreme example of socialism) was very restrictive in what it allowed people to do, ie no religion, no opposition parties etc.

I really like Leslie Newbigin, but almost all his books seem to be out of print. I like his analysis of capitalism and socialism- its a good balanced view. And I see where he's coming from in regards to the relational thing, but how would that be put in to practice? Could we start up a political party that espoused the ideas of a truly relational society?

I dont think I understand what your getting at. is...

2006-01-28T14:09:05.893Z

I dont think I understand what your getting at. isnt the giving up of freedom a bit too far along the predestination line?

plus the bibles view of humanity seems to change from book to book as wach persons view of God changes.

In our ever widening such for Utopian Life has som...

2006-01-28T07:49:27.216Z

In our ever widening such for Utopian Life has someone formed a hybrid ideal of capatilism and socialism, sopatilism if you like? If not I shall propose a fine balance of existance where we are all equal but some are more equal than others (why am I thinking of a farm?!).

Seriously though whats the biblical model? The early church seemed much more socialist but how did they tackle the freedom issue.
In the words of William Wallace:

"It's all for nothing if you don't have freedom."

When are we starting the revolution Jon?