Last night Becky and I went with friends to hear a speaker who had a big influence on me during my university years. We really enjoyed the music and the atmosphere of the night, but a few of the things that were said bothered us both.
There was just too much church bashing. Too many accusations. Too many cheap shots. Too much made of the distinction between the mainstream church and the speaker's version of the gospel. We are all part of the church. The failings of one group is the failing of the whole. It is too easy to abandon our brothers and sisters when they make mistakes, distancing ourselves from them as if we are in some way superior. I much prefer McLaren's approach, where traditions are accepted for their strengths and not vilified for their weaknesses. Where humility about our own approach is central to partaking in the great mission of God.
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9 comments:
I agree, Jon. I think he made lots of good points but at times his views were as narrow-minded as those he despises.
But Sean is one of my heroes!
I have to say I completely agree Jonno. Was mildly disappointed with Mr Smith but I still found alot of what he said challenging and thought provoking. It appears that his 'church' lies outside traditional denomination and he's too busy fighting his corner that he might have lost sight of the wider church and it's importantance and value. We are all human and we all have weaknesses I guess.
hello big man. hows tricks? love the post
jon old
Good to hear from you Jon. Things are good here, working as a probation officer, just bought a house (and a cat). How are you and your lovely lady?
I think you are right, speaking as someone who does more than my fair share of church bashing.
For some reason I find accepting and learning from older church traditions much easier than taking anything from the evangelical church.
not sure i'm quite with you on this one jon... i didn't think he was at his best by any means, think it was a shame he was so rambly etc...
however, on the church bashing front - maybe it is a bit easier for us who don't have to deal with the mainstream church, don't really get criticised and don't have to put up with the expectations of the christian world (except the christian communities we choose because we like them). people who are public figures in the christian world but hold views which run counter to the conservative-ish mainstream either have to 'play the game' a little bit, and go for diplomacy as well as trying to expand understanding, or they just say what they think and then get slated. so i think it's possible that the 'church bashing' was valid... it's right, i think, to call it when things are wrong.
i guess my two points are that it's right for us to criticise - NOT for the sake of it, but where we see harm being done and particularly where that harm is in a christian context (it's almost defending the faith to call that) and secondly that he's probably seen more of the bad side than we have. Maybe.
I definately value the 'see the good in all the traditions' thing as you know, but i wholeheartedly cannot sit comfortably alongside christians who, in principle and practice, reject the call to deal compassionately with others. i would prefer to be around those who challenge me to think further and do better, really, than those who only accept me for my strengths. i suppose there's a fine line between accepting an approach and endorsing a practice that you believe to be wrong?
I was in a church recently which was very, very offensively prosperity. the 'harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than get a camel through the eye of a needle' line was explained, as i've heard many times, as getting a camel through a city gate called the needle - no problem there. what was a problem is that then the guy said 'but, church, what they did afterwards, was drag the stuff they'd taken off the camel outside the gate to get it through, through the gate after the camel, and put it back on! GOD WANTS YOU TO HAVE THE STUFF!' And there were many comments about the church being beautiful people and attractive and the like... there aren't even expletives strong enough to describe my disgust. that is simply not ok. i think that's part of the sort of thing i mean!
Jon and Jodie, Haven't we all.
Chalky, I can see your point. And we both probably agree with each other in practice. I just wish that there was a bit more compassion for the church and humility regarding our own positions.
I often feel that there is also a considerable amount of exaggeration that goes on. Maybe we haven't experienced the same amount of problems, and maybe the prosperity teachings have a stronger hold in Australia than Britain, but the idea that the 'mainstrean church' (whatever the hell that means) has it wrong and is incompassionate seems to be extreme to say the least.
What frustrated me the most was the idea that this was 'church for people who are turned off by religion'. In other words, this is the place for people who don't like the church. That just turns me off.
The Irresistible Revolution looks interesting, Jon. Is it good?
Only one or two chapters through but it is very challenging. He takes his faith very seriously. Definitely one to read.
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