At least that’s the stereotype. In case you haven’t guessed, I’m talking about vegetarians. For about 18 months I’ve been questioning whether to leave meat-eating behind me, but have found that my love of meat has heavily influenced my decision to remain a carnivore.
That is until recently. After a conversation with Scrivner and doing a bit of reading, I have decided that for ethical and environmental reasons I am going to take the plunge and begin my journey towards a meat-free life. I’ve managed to get the wife on board (ish) and have had a fairly successful first week.
What do you all think?
52 comments:
Is this the same wife who seemed to be distinctly NOT on board with you last weekend?
Let me just say this: What is it that is being destroyed at an alarming rate each day? Is it Chickens? Pigs? NO! Its vegetation. And you say that you've got morals. Sick, that's what you are, sick.
The earth is overpopulated with animals, and underpopulated with plants. I'm just helping to redress the balance.
No it's a different wife, a swopped her in for another at the pawn shop.
i'm reading Ghandi's biography and he was well up for the whole vegetarian thing,
and he was a good lad so maybe the whole thing is not as stupid as i have always thought.
Although I've never been even remotely challenged by the reasoning behind it,
maybe I haven't heard a convincing arguement but I dunno.
ok, good reasons to be a veggie that spur me on when I fancy bacon:
chicken breeded for supermarkets live in cages and are given antibiotics to stop them from picking up illnesses from eating each others shit.
(surely you dont need any more than that?)
It takes 78 calories of fossil fuel to produce 1 calorie of beef protein; 35 calories for 1 calorie of pork; 22 calories for 1 of poultry; but just 1 calorie of fossil fuel for 1 calorie of soybeans.
Water Conservation. It takes 3 to 15 times as much water to produce animal protein as it does plant protein.
Animal foods are higher in fat than most plant foods, particularly saturated fats. Plants do not contain cholesterol.
you cant get ecoli or campylobacter from a mung bean
being a veggie is the easiest way to stay slim second only to snorting coke, and much less expensive.
On a downside, you do fart a hell of a lot more, and having been on the recieving end of your already acrid ass Jon, I would ask you to strongly consider the safety of the people around you before taking the decision to be veggie.
And you should also grow a beard.
I don't think that this is the most sane or ecological rational decision. What about all the CFC's and chlorine related chemicals that will be used in post vegetarian fest toliet cleaning sessions, and surely you have considered your contribution to the greenhouse effect ....
we have an eco toilet cleaner that uses no chemicals and can remove even Jons poo smells!
not enough jodes,
not convinced,
remember these arguements have to outweigh a bigmac on the scales of lifestyle
Justyn, yes, I am the king of the fads. Whether it is knitting, origami, juggling, playing the guitar or blogging I have tried them all (it should be noted that I have been playing the guitar nearly 13 years though). However, did I think any of these hobbies were the missing part of my life? the answer is no.
The kind of things I percieve to be 'the missing part of my life' tend to be more associated with spirituality rather than out and out hobbies. On my spiritual journey these things have been directed at my prayer life (such as praying the rosary and following the Christian year), my neighbour (involvement in the anti-war campaigns and trade justice campaigns, choice of career etc.) and the environment (decision to research hydrogen storage materials, using ethical energy suppliers, not owning two cars etc.). All of these fit within the trajectory of God's kingdom. While there will inevitably be seasons where some of these practices are used and others aren't (depending on other commitments etc.), I aim to achieve some level of consistency in my spiritual journey.
Vegetarianism fits more in the 'spirituality' camp than the 'hobby' camp. I believe there are good reasons for following a meat-free lifestlye and it is therefore something that I am endeavouring to do for the sake of ethics rather than any improvement in my own life.
And for your information, I am still mad about new fads. My most recent being growing my own vegetables and learning to speak Latin American Spanish!
hurrah! Bacon is horrible anyway. Chickpeas and cabbage rule!
ps. Tell us about your vegetable-growing next! In case you need some tips, I have tried parsnips (tub too small and they went curly, but v.cute!), spring onions (smaller than somehow chemically-boosted supermarket trolley onions, surely), spinach (way too successful for my liking) and erbs, but husband won't let me take over garden and plant all lovely things like asparagus and celeriac. He likes flowers.
My word code thing has "fab" in the middle! I know, darlings.
Yeah I was wondering if your reasons are totally to do with the way the animal is reared. Would you go for organic, for example? Or how about a wild animal, shot? Do you still eat fish?
And which meat are you missing the most so far? I'm finding that you just can't buy a decent sausage around here, Norway only offers many different varieties of hot dog...
wahoo Jon, join the fun!! we'll have to do receipe swaps or a big party with lots of yummy veggie food... there's such a large and exciting world in the slow-food life (to be fair, even in the organic, free-range meat meals) that it is a real pleasure to explore it. and all the more merrier with good friends to do it with:)
Tofu has more protein than beef and isn't that bad, specially in stir-fries, mm.
I agree partially with Josie - if you are going to eat meat, it has to be organic. The way the non-organic farmers are obliged (benefit of doubt) to rear animals is bloomin' awful.
Steve's Favourite Dinner
Frittata:
Couple of potatoes
Mushrooms
Tomatoes
Onion
Eggs x4
Double cream
Salt and pepper
Saute onion and potato (chopped pretty small), when brown, add tomato and mushrooms for few minutes.
Whisk eggs with cream, salt and pepper. Pour over veg in pan and cook on hob gently until brown underneath, then put under grill to brown top. Cheese optional. Eat with tomato salad and glass of wine, and at room temperature is also good.
No Jon, NO. What are you playing at? I used to respect you but in about two weeks you'll be so weak and thin I might just go and buy some boxing gloves!
Seriously though. Whats wrong with meat? Jodie's made up all those facts so I'm going to do the same:
Did you know that one chick pea produces more CO2 than the average family car.
9 out of 10 chickens surveyed enjoy their steriod injections.
Fact - Chickens with big breasts have more fun.
Need anymore reasons to eat meat?
Tim I'd be very careful insulting Gods creation when you are about to jump out of a plane...s
THe frittata sounds yummy. here's my favourite:
Dhal with halloumi cheese:
200g lentils (yep, beardy lentils)
2 plum tomatoes chopped
1 onion chopped
3 cloves garlic chopped
2 tsp tumeric
2 tsp garam masala
2 tsp paprika
(pour 1 litre water over the above, bring to the boil and simmer until thick - bout 20 mins)
when the dhal has thickened, grill or fry as many chunks of halloumi cheese as you fancy until they are caramel on the outside.
add 3 tsp coriander leaves to the dhal and serve with the halloumi and naaan bread
yummmy!!!!
Buy one large large, free range scotch BBQ Beef joint, chuck it on the barbie, and feast on it like a king.
Just think, you'll be missing out on Veal, venison, fois-gras, Tiger testicles, Whale, and goodness knows what else.
I think that Justyn and I have aired some pretty serious doubts about Bexky's support of your flatulific life choice. I wont be convinced until you get her to come on this blog and say what she really thinks (double challenge for Jon!)
kiera, Tofu is made out of satans bum. really, its awful.
I fully agree with buying organic meat. its just really expensive so we're economic vegetarians.
The reasons you should spend the extra pennies on organic:
1. God created all the earth not just the people so we should look after everything
2. if people dont support organic farmers they will go out of business. they wont be able to feed their children and will probably commit mass suicide.
3. nasty conglomerates like tesco will then take over the earth. nothing will be original, everything will be mass produced
4. Apples arent meant to be perfect, just like humans. At the moment, farmers can only sell fruit and veg to supermarkets that looks a certain way. the rest gets chucked. its the fruit equivalent of euthanasia for disabled people. all that waste could go to feeding the poor and hungry. but it doesnt.
5.your ovaries will shrivel if you keep eating crappy chemicals and you wont be able to have lots of little trevors.
6. Organic food tastes like food
convinced?
Organics should be compulsory I think. What's with eating vegetables that have been covered in chemicals? Ew.
Jon, Nadine Abensur is a good veggie writer - if you are looking for some recipes to start trying. She has a fast-food book where all the recipes take (allegedly) thirty minutes, which is where the frittata recipe was born.
http://www.ivillage.co.uk/food/fruitveg/vegetarian/articles/0,10103,251_165932,00.html
Jodie, I like tofu! You have to marinade it in soy sauce, then fry it until it goes crunchy on the outside, then eat with plum sauce or - even better - a peanut satay dip. Mmmmm, hungry now.
well maybe I'll try that. have not heard of a good encounter with it yet. peanuts kill me though so perhaps I'll leave them out.
my mum has that fast food book, its got some good stuff in it. My mother in law swears by Cranks for veggie recipies
Wow, leave your blog alone for an evening and it goes beserk!
I have just come back from a two day course in mid-wales where I really did miss meat, but I managed to survive. The vegetarian provision was awful, it was basically bum on a plate.
Anna, Will keep you up to date with the vegetable growing. Moving into a new house within three weeks hopefully, so am aiming to get the garden ready for easter, thanks for the tips.
Josie, Dan and Kiera, In short, no. My reasons for going vegetarian are compounded by the way aminals are reared etc. but essentially I no longer want to kill an animal to eat it. Nice killing or bad killing is still killing at the end of the day (still working this through so I would relish some debate around this issue).
Dan, I have unfortunately decided to stop eating fish too. The meat I miss most? this would have to be steak.
Maria, looking forward to the parties!
Oakes, any time anywhere. I will box you to death. The Calzaghe v. Lacey fight was a foretaste of how badly I will beat you.
Lovell, will try to get the wife on the blog. It might be difficult though, I think she's allergic or something.
Anna and Jodie, thanks for the great advice and enthusiastic support, looking forward to trying out some of those recipies.
funny.
ben, allergies are a serious matter.
If I ever die of anaphylaxis I shall hold you personally responsibly, and make sure I implicate you in any legal action.
one of the things I've found with eating more-or-less veggie is that there are loads of foods that I have discovered that I wouldnt have eaten had we not ruled out meat.stuff like lentils and beans are really yummy (honest!)
So in actual fact we havent limited our options, we've increased them.
And like Jon says, we would eat anything that someone was nice enough to prepare for us.
And I still wouldnt say no to a bit of pork crackling!
"Ethical vegetarianism is incompatible with the orthodox view of a meat-eating Jesus."
Not my words, but those of Keith Akers (check him out!) in an article called Christian/Vegetarian Dialogue. Only skimmed it but you said you were looking for debate...
That quote is misrepresentative actually, he seems quite pro-veg to me. Also links at the bottom to another article I haven't got time to read.
Kiera, yes it is the circle of life. In a post-fall world it is the way everything works (survival of the fittest etc.). However, in looking back to God's creative intention, this wasn't the case.
Scripture is constantly calling us to look forward to recreation when God's kingdom will rule. God's will is to reconcile all of creation to himself (Colossians), to return to his original intention and as Christians we live with this 'now but not yet' tension. We are called to reflect God's kingdom of peace, love and justice in way that gives a foretaste of what is to come. This is the basis of Christian spirituality.
The prophet Isaiah looks forward to time where the 'natural' order will be reversed and all creatures will live together in harmony (Isa 11). Christian vegetarians look forward to this time, and anticipate it.
I agree with Jon and Jodie, that if someone has gone to the trouble of preparing me food and did not realise, then I would not refuse their generous offer, that would be ungracious.
Yes vegetarians do have dietary requirements but so do a lot of people. Whether it is gluten allergies, dairy allergies, nut allergies or just a dislike of mushrooms, we all have personal tastes that our hosts take account of. Veggies just get a bad press.
I don't know if what you say about it being a purely Western concept is really true. Vegetarianism has a very long history that predates the fall of the Roman Empire.
There is a strong moral tradition to vegetarianism, and as Jodie has already pointed out, to leave meat out is results in less of a strain on our already overstretched planet.
Alright, never mind free range eggs, you talk about how you don't want to kill animals anymore and give some scriptural references. So can I ask what you believe about the morality of animals dying so we can eat them? Is it a matter of right and wrong for you?
there are cases where people are dying off for lack of food - seen the news lately?
its difficult to make a moral arguement for vegetariansim or meat eating because theres not an obviously waek arguement on either side.
All I can say is you do what you feel you have to do. In the end you have to answer for your own behaviour (that was not meant to be as apocalyptic as it sounds!)We are doing our best to live a low impact lifestyle, and not eating meat is one way we see of doing that.
did anyone see 'jimmy's farm' last night? they went to rescue some chickens that had been factory farmed. The poor things looked so skinny and their wings were all broken and they didnt know how to run or drink water. It was horrible. any reservations I had about being an almost veggie dissappeared.
Okay. From what I can sense there seems to be a number of different positions, even amongst those of us who are vegetarians.
Dan, I find words like right and wrong a little difficult. I feel uncomfortable killing animals so that I can eat them. And as I said above, whether that killing is humane or not doesn't make a difference from where I am standing. I see it more as anticipating the new kingdom, becoming part of what is not yet our reality. Maybe I just don't like the words right and wrong because they are too black and white (not sure whether I have answered your question, re-ask it in a slightly different way if I have missed your point)
Kiera, If I am not doing it for religous reasons then why do you think I am doing it?.
Are meat eating diets better for you? Not sure, we'd have to ask a nutritionist.
I don't understand your question about making it moral. You seem to be saying that morality shouldn't impinge on our dietary habits, why is morality not applicable here when you would want to apply it to other areas of life. The division seems a bit artificial to me.
There are a large number of Christian vegetarians from the first half millenium AD. Alledgedly these include Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, Basil the Great and John Chrysostom, although why they chose this lifestlye I am unsure (haven't read any of their books). I think variations of Hinduism are particularly interested in vegetarianism (although I don't really know much about this). The Hare Krishnas and Ghandi are the only ones I have heard about (I'm sure there are more though). As to their reasons, Ghandi's was moral and i suspect the Hare Krishnas reasons are based on ethics too.
Jon, the argument is not hard to make and certainly isn't charismatic. Fair enough, you could easily discount it because you believe the bible to be a pile of crap, but a high view of scripture demands an attempt to take it seriously on its own terms. And as you know, I do take a high view of scripture (one that is not as intellectually futile as it may first seem either). Also, the reason I believe the environment to be an important issue for Christians is building on that same scriptural tension. We are called to live out an existence that takes God's creation seriously, that seeks to reflect the glory of the coming kingdom, the original creative intention.
I agree with Jodie, at the end of the day we will all have to answer for our own behaviour. There are no water-tight arguments either way, yet I do believe in what I am doing, otherwise i wouldn't be doing it at all.
Hey Jon and everyone else i don't know, I'm Jon's nutritionist friend.
Interesting debate on here, lots of things to comment on here, where shall i start??
Much of Hinduism is totally vegetarian, including not eating eggs. I work with Hindu's in my community everyday and most of them are vegetarian, its an ancient tradition.
In terms of health and vegetarianism there are different arguments for different groups of the population. For example red meat consumption over a long period of time is linked with a high incidence of cancer, especially bowel cancers. But consumption of oily fish can reduce your risk of coronary heart disease.
Red meat is one of the best sources of iron in our diets, and is therefore extremely important for population groups susceptible to aneamia - infants, children, pregnant women - for these people i would not advocate a vegetarian diet as the best way to treat your body. For everybody else I would say that vegetarianism is the best way to treat your body as long as you will allow oily fish (sardines, mackerel, salmon, trout, herring, etc).
However there is a caveat even to this argument. Menstruating women have to be careful about their iron levels if they are vegetarians - having a source of vitamin C (brocolli, spinach, peppers, any fruit etc) with your meals and avoiding tea and coffee with your meals will help avoid this. Healthy adult males however have no excuse - if you want to treat your bodies right (as God intended?!?), then be vegetarian but eat oily fish occasionally!
In terms of the ethical/environmental argument, i take the following stance - I am a vegetarian because i do not nead to eat meat to be healthy, therefore it is unethical for me to kill animals simply for the pleasure of eating them. However i do need oily fish to be at my optimum health, so it is not unethical for me to kill these creatures for food as long as they are sourced from the wild (i.e. not farmed).
The reduced environmental impact of vegetarianism is a bonus for me.
And vegetarianism is definitely not boring, the best meals i have tasted have been vegetarian. They are also a joy to cook because you have to be inventive and experimental, rather than boring old meat and potatoes.
So there... Tom.
I think what I'm interested in is if you think scripture is against meat-eating. I know it's pretty obvious but Jesus and Paul were both more than familiar with the Torah and weren't vegetarians. So when you were saying "killing is killing" I was wondering if you were basing that on a mixture of things (some bits if the Bible, some personal experience, whatever) or if you felt that, overall, the Bible's line is to drop the chop.
This is a whole other point but I've heard it said that eating meat (like the Jewish animal sacrifices) is probably the only way most of us will know what it feels like to physically benefit from another's death. That's not always at the front of my mind when I'm reaching for the gravy I admit.
I can confirm that Jon is already looking pale and weak. This is clearly about more than just running out of chicken. We're arranging our boxing match for a few weeks when Jon will be struggling to stand.
Scriv, Cheers mate. Looks like I have finally found an issue worth talking about!
Tom, thanks for your comments. It is nice to have someone who actually knows what he is talking about from a nutritionist perspective join the conversation.
Dan, I see what your saying. I'm not arguing that everyone should do it, that it is a right/wrong issue. We know that in the new creation there will be no death, I am trying to anticipate this in the here and now. Overall, my desire to come vegetarian comes from my kingdom understanding of Christian spirituality.
Paul doesn't seem to be too concerned with slavery, the torah authorises genocide etc. etc. Yet these are issues that I imagine most of us would want to condemn on ethical grounds. From where I stand, on re-reading the bible from a narrative perspective and interpreting that story in my current context (so, yes there are inevitably extra-biblical influences), a responsible stewardship seems to include vegetarianism. In term's of the Bible's line, I am uncomfortable in identifying my re-interpretation as it (there are two many extra-biblical sources involved), but I do think there is a good argument if we look to the four anglican pillars of scripture, reason, tradition and experience.
I don't agree that Paul isn't concerned with slavery. He says that they should become free if the opportunity arises and urges masters to be fair and just. I also don't think it's accurate to say that the Torah authorises genocide. It was authorised only on specific ocassions when there was no alternative (eg the Canaanites, who, among other things, had the practice of sacrificing their own children).
But, yeah! John Wesley! Good form... I can see how, overall, the four pillars lean towards vegetarianism for you; the swing vote probably being experience. And I like the kingdom perspective you have in working this out. Have you read the Kingdom of Jesus by Roger Forster? It is excellent.
As I said ben, you cant get ecoli from a mung bean!
Ki, fab that you are going to buy organic meat. I have to say I dont have a big problem with animals being killed in a humane way, but I eat veggie because organic meat is So expensive!!
Ben, I know that people have killed for meat over centuries but its only in the last few decades that meat has been mass produced in the alarming way it is now, because of our consumer culture demanding more cheap meat.
Animals used to be afforded healthy lives, happy and free to pursue a life of religious fulfillment, but now they are crammed into barns, pumped full of shit (sometimes literally) and are not able to live any kind of humane existance before being killed.
I read an article by a farmer who once produced non-organic meat and now has an organic farm. he said that when he was loading animals up to go to the slaughter house they would literally shit themselves with fear. It must smell great in a slaughter house!
I would like to draw attention to the superb comment made by trev on bex's blog. made me weep.
Yeah you're right benny, a balance of all the food groups is always best.
As for white meat, i wouldn't say it is an 'unhealthy' food as such, except if you buy non-organic poultry which has most likely been injected with salt, sugar, water, and anti-biotics!
White meat is a good source of protein, but doesn't provide a whole let else, no fibre, very little iron, not many vits and mins. If you had pulses instead for example, they provide you with enough protein, but also iron, fibre, vitamins, and phytochemicals that are exclusive to plant foods. Or eggs - good source of protein, but also have iron, and are packed full of nutrients improtant for the growing chick! Better all round.
But yeah i wouldn't say a little white meat added to a mainly vege diet is bad. Just not as good as the alternatives.
T.
Dan, cheers. I haven't read that book but have heard it is good. I got into the whole kingdom perspective thing through Brian McLaren's 'A New Kind of Christian', a fantastic book. I will try to get hold of Forster's book once I have cleared my monstrously overweight 'to read' pile.
Ben, Kiera and Jodie, I guess we will have to agree to disagree over the killing issue. I still don't see the basis for a sharp distinction between humanely raised for slaughter and cruelly raised for slaughter. It seems that if we are concerned for the welfare of the animal then the very act of killing for us to eat must be called into question. But if I haven't persuaded you after 50 odd comments worth of debate then I guess we just aren't going to agree on this one.
Tom, thank you for your expertise.
Scriv, it is a myth.
Eggs contain lots of Cholesterol, but there is no decent evidence to suggest that the amount of cholesterol we eat has any effect on our bodies cholesterol level - this is determined by genetics, body size, age, exercise, and saturated fat intake. So go ahead, eat eggs til the chickens come home.
I'm with you on the killing thing on the whole Jon, perhaps in the new creation it will be applicable to everyone, because hopefully none of us will need meat for food. Those of us who can, lets live in the kingdom now!!
Hurrah for Tom the nutritionist! I have been vegetarian for 13 years and am very healthy. I walk lots and haven't even had a cold this winter. Vegetarians tend to take more care over getting a balanced diet, in my experience, and usually get our '5 a day' (that's fruit and vegetables, not beef).
I'm with you Jon that killing doesn't seem an ethical choice, and I simply wouldn't be happy with the fact that animals are being killed for me to chow down on. It is sentimental maybe, but just because the human race has evolved as meat-eaters doesn't mean that is the 'right' or even logical choice. In fact I haven't yet read an argument proving that there is anything necessary, ethical or logical about it...
PS I don't know if you have looked into it Jon but the box scheme is a great way to get organic veg cheaper than in the supermarket. Also, you get seasonal vegetables only... which has also been shown to be better for our bodies.
Jon, there are a couple of good organic veg box schemes around Swansea area if you're looking. I found that an excellent way of getting regular and cheeper veg. I've found the hardest part of being a veggie are those conferences and their horrendous food. It pays to bring along a stash of snacks!!
Can I throw in a comment from something said a while ago - about eating wild fish vs farmed fish. Talk about an unsustainable industry!!! Wild fish populations are crashing in the seas around us and I don't think that can be used as an environmental argument. There are many increadible initiatives in countries like India and China where small scale community fish farms are providing cheep food protein for communities often lacking it. A lot of these projects are reinventing the wheel and teaching traditional methods to (often) women. Inspiring examples of farmed fish! Not that I eat fish in the first place...
I'd like to add my support to whoever said they would eat a meat meal provided to them by a friend. Even as a commited vegetarian, hospitality is such a sacred cow for me that I'll gladly eat a meal offered as a gift.
(A slight tangent on sacred cows: In Nepal you get 7 years in prison for killing a man, and 14 for killing a cow...)
Thanks for the advert Scriv, come on over and join the fun...or start the fun if you like...!
Kiera, good question yeah. I think from a health point of view it would be unethical for everyone to be vegetarian. For many people it is life-sustaining, like the farmd fish that Fools Cap alluded to, good comment. I don't think ethical decisions can be made that cover everything/everyone/for all time. they have to made on a case-by-case, or population-by-population basis.
The same goes for the farmed vs wild fish debate. In this country it is possible for me to eat fish, but avoid both farmed fish and wild fish that are in short supply (e.g. cod). I am free to make that decision, and its an ethical choice. However if you live in bangledesh and are iodine deficient, it would be unethical of me to stop you eating farmed fish that are high in iodine and will drastically improve your health.
I think there are few if any moral judgements/universal truth's that all should adhere to. What does anyone else think?
Anna and Maria, Cheers for the advice. We are hopefully moving house in about a fortnight, so I will look into it once we're in.
Kiera, I am aware of my own context, what I bring to the situation. I would never want to claim to take God's perspective (the view from nowhere). However, that doesn't mean I relativise truth and morality. The strength of my belief will be played out in my actions and commitment. I aim to know reality with universal intent but I do not claim to know morality in its entirety, just to be on the way to the fulness of knowledge. Others are on that journey too, and I value their perspectives on and experiences of morality. Through constructive discussion and debate we can all hope to move forward together, further on that road to truth. This may not have answered the question, but I don't think a yes or no answer is appropriate. In essence I am falling short of saying that my perspective on morality is the only one and all should be vegetarians, yet not falling as low as relegating my morality to the realsm of relative choice. In short, the epistemology of Micheal Polanyi.
bloody hell jon. eh? could you use paragraphs?
Errr yes, sorry about that. Complicated and paragraphless.
Ben, Your face is required for a date with my fist at the next available oppurtunity. It will not be pretty!
I've already told her!
Jon, you really arent living with the whole veggie ethos of peace and love now are you? there seem to be very few friends left that you havent threatened to impail or bum to death. not very shalom, even by my standards.
It is just that I don't value Ben or Trev or Tim Oakes enough to accord them the same respect I would give an animal. But I suppose Jesus would have loved them as well as the animals.
I can confim that I squeezed Jon's bicep today and it is definatley smaller and squashier than last week. Give it two more weeks of no meat and I'll have him in a fight. I can also confirm that becky has been bullied into this regime by an abusive husband
Cheers Scriv. Yep, this post is degenerating into meaninglessness, I think it's time for a new one.
BEING A VEGGIE WILL GIVE YOU UNCONTROLLABLE WIND! I ADVISE YOU TO STOP THIS FOOLISH CHARADE IF YOU VALUE YOUR MARRIAGE.
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