Life has been busy recently. A stag night, a fantastic wedding and the busiest week at work so far has meant blogging has taken a back seat. Anyway, back to buisness...
Halloween came and went and not one trick or treater graced our doorstep for the second year running. Maybe all the kids were out at Halloween parties, or maybe they just heard that I am tight.
All the Halloween festivities on television have got me and Becky thinking about what role Halloween will play when we have kids. Will they be allowed to celebrate with the rest, or is there something more sinister lying beneath it all? When I was younger, my church used to put on Christian parties to compensate; looking back now it just all seems a bit 'Ned Flanders' to me.
We ended up coming to the conlusion that we probably would let our kids celebrate Halloween. What do you think?
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22 comments:
What exactly would you be celebrating?
And what message would that give to your kids?
Just some questions to begin the debate
Crazy, I was just looking down your links and saw Kiera Phyo. I was like 'I didn't know there was a Kiera Phyo' and had to check it before I realised what was going on. Dumbass.
Tim, I'm with Josie. In reality, I don't think people are relly celebrating anything, it's just an excuse to dress up and have fun. In terms of messages to our kids, I think tackling the consumerism that runs rife at Christmas is a far more pressing concern. What do you think?
Josie, I recommend the good old fashion ghost. Easy to make and very economical.
You'd better talk to your parents about Halloween parties, Jon. Just mention Tenerife and see what they say!
I suppose I will have to be boring and say that Halloween celebrates evil, even if nobody thinks about it that way. I imagine Satan would be quite pleased to think his influence was being so downplayed. He can be very powerful when apathy reigns. (I don't think apathy is the word I want there.)
And don't get me started on Trick or Treaters!
Halloween is huge in Canada- I guess its the US influence. It's one of the only holidays Canadians actually celebrate apart from Canada Day and Christmas. No one really seems to know/care what its about though- there's an element of 'scariness' but mostly people just dress up as something half-assed and lame (the guys) or cheerleaders and playboy bunnies (the girls) and go to parties. Definitely consumerism is the issue. People just want an excuse to have a party, which is fine if your a student and thats all you want to do anyway. For kids though, whats the point? You have to make them costumes and then take them wandering the streets in the dark (which i think id have an issue with), knocking on strangers' doors (again not too impressed ) and stuffing themselves with candy til they're sick. I hope I can instill enough critical thought in my kids for them to look with distain on such meaningless activities!
Liz, I'm not sure whether Halloween does celebrate evil. Isaac Bonewitts (a neopagan) has written a helpful article about the origins of halloween here. It would appear that Halloween is just another pagan festival that the church has co-opted into it's calander (like Christmas and Easter).
Cat, good point, trick or treating does appear to be a bit suspect. However, don't go knocking eating until your sick, this is something myself and Rob do on a regular basis and it is awesome. But seriously, I think that if it is just another excuse for a party then there isn't much wrong with that, as long as we are sensible.
I know it sounds kind of old fashioned, but I think when you dress up as something it is celebrating it. I presume you wouldn't let your kids dress up in a KKK outfit, or a Nazi costume (look out prince Harry).
If you don't believe the devil, or stuff like that exists, then thats another matter, but to dress up like something, does certainly support it.
Also, I'm totally with Cat on the Trick or treat issue. And thats what I generally talk about when I say I don't like haloween. I think that its negative because of knocking on strangers doors, and also more than any other festival, it seems that young people feel they are justified in terrorising people.
And I'm not sure about haloween being similar to Christmas and Easter. While the church did take on pagan celebration days that were at Easter and Christmas, when we celebrate them, it is the Christian content that is supposedly the main thing (although you could argue that they are both now more celebrations of consumer culture). Whereas on haloween, I'm pretty sure that nobody is conciously celebrating all souls day. Instead, they continue to celebrate more pagan, or occultic things.
Finally, I just wanted to say that it is also blatantly a massive consumer issue. It now the 3rd biggest celebration of the year, and Brits usually spend about £21 million on the day, but in the States, its their second biggest day, with an estimated $6 BILLION being spent. Now that is an obscene amount.
The end.
Okay, 'celebrating evil' is too strong a description of what happens in our culture where the concepts of good and evil are treated with similar disdain, but the fact remains that the shops are full of devil and witch masks, which children are encouraged to wear. Yes, it seems as if I'm making a lot of fuss about a harmless bit of fun but it's not something I wanted my children to do (and they probably hated me for it!)
Also Halloween is growing and growing in popularity; more and more money is being spent on it. The tidal wave of the evil of consumerism sweeping in? How long before we get a Bank Holiday for it?
Easter is bunnies and eggs; Halloween is witches and devils. What's the difference? They're all just a bit of fun.
Don't mind me; I'm very into conspiracy theories at the moment!
I come from a rich heritage of 'hallelujah parties' and nice safe fun.
Part of me would like to maintain this innocence for my kids. there is enough scary stuff on earth without having to celebrate it. but then on the other hand, kids dont get enough chances to just be kids and have fun, and I really felt like I missed out on all the fun (as much as hallelujah parties were fun-diddlydumptous).
One of the sisters at work said that they had trick or treaters and her 5 year old son was absolutely rigid with fear at the kids dressed up as monsters, as far as he was concerned, his worst nightmares were stood on his doorstep. before children are 5 they have no concept of what is real and what is pretend, I definately dont want my kids to be unnecessarily terrified.
but then I read about a lady who got together with some of the mums on her street and sent fliers to everyone in the neighbourhood saying a group of us are going to trick or treat, if you dont mind being disturbed please put the fliers in the window. apparently some of the neighbours made a real effort and dressed up as monsters to answer the door etc. now the area has regular street events. so if you can get a sense of community from it, I'm all for it.
I guess the answer is (as I believe every answer is) TALK TO YOUR KIDS! if you have open communication about what haloween is, why you have chosen to celebrate it, and ensure they're not gonna be terrified by it, then you shouldnt face too many problems (apart from bible bashers like lovell that is)
Well, look at that: Tim and I posted at exactly the same time, saying similar things.
So Jodes, did you say you were gonna celebrate it? I wasn't sure what your conclusion was.
I'd hope my kids would get the chance to be children for more than 1 day a year. So me being a restrictive old fashioned dad for one day wont bother me too much.
We could sit down and read Leviticus together.
And like I said earlier, quite apart from any spiritual objections I might have, I still think its not great in other ways
Tim, I certainly agree with your comments about consumerism. But consumerism invades all aspects of our life, and the presence of it in one area cannot be an argument for avoiding it altogether.
Good point about trick or treating, it is a bit ethically dubioius.
I just don't think that halloween has satanic roots. When we dress up as ghouls, ghosts and skeletons we aren't celebrating their existence, we're just dressing up as scary things, not partaking in an occultic practice etc.
Out of interest, do you think that Prince Harry dressing up as a Nazi was wrong? I'm just interested to see if you think that there's a difference between doing that and dressing up as devils, ghosts etc.
People thought what Harry did was bad because of what the Nazis did, but if we believe in the existence of 'the dark side' surely they do the same sort of thing, without sounding too paranormal.
still not sure bout the haloween thing with my own, think we'll play it by ear.
I think the negative impact of being left out of school events is bigger than the possible impact of being a bit scared, like I said, if you have open dialogue with your kids, you can talk these things through.
I think both prince harry and halloween are both ironic statements. however misguided harry may have been to dress up like a nazi, I dont think he would have meant any malice by it. Similarly, for the majority of people, halloween is just a chance to laugh at things that scare you.
I'm with Jodie. Halloween seems more a chance to laugh at things that scare us than to celebrate the existence of evil.
A question for you Jon: Would you let your child wear an England Rugby top?
I would sooner die than let my child wear an English rugby top. It would appear then that I am a rabid fundamentalist when it comes to my nationality. oh dear!
dont worry jon, we are praying for you...
Until I can see a positive behind the festival my kids won't celebrate halloween. If it's just that they can have an evening of fun then I'm sure they'll enjoy the Back to the Future trilogy back-to-back far more than dressing up as cartoon versions of icons opposed to God.
And there's no way I'm going to give them the message that if there's something that everyone else is doing then they should be bothered about it. I intend to raise overcomers. Maybe we'll go out and evangelise every halloween...
Back to the future trilogy back to back, now there's a halloween well spent.
My kids will also be well accustomed to the Mighty Ducks trilogy. Emilio Estevez's performance as the Minnesota miracle man was truly the twentieth century's defining moment.
I'm not saying everyone who trick or treats will grow up a satanist, just that, for me, £2.64 and an assortment of rank pick 'n' mix is not enough. Isn't it much better that they grow in evangelism or in giving to others?
Who's going to place an order?
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